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Politics and Religion

What are the evidence and proof of your current religion?

Posted By:
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Posted about 4 years ago

"-Zachary-" wrote:

This is a really bad analogy because it's not dealing with the existence or non-existence of something which is the context I was using it in.

I was replying to ''no one seeks to prove a negative' in general. 

"-Zachary-" wrote:


The logic is is that the argument of "You can't prove that God doesn't exist, therefore he exists" is faulty.

I agree, I don't expect anyone to believe because of this. 

"-Zachary-" wrote:


What? No, I'm sure you have plenty of reasons. It's just that all of those reasons are founded in either delusion, ignorance, or faith (or a mixture). None of which actually hold up when investigating reality.

Maybe I should have wrote valid reasons then. This is why I mentioned the fact that you don't know what are the arguments of God existence from an Islamic perspective.

"-Zachary-" wrote:



Yes. The main difference between freethinking and religion is that one actually changes and doesn't claim to have absolute answers. If we find that blowing yourself up in the name of Allah is actually the best for overall human wellness, then I'm all for it. But at the moment, that hasn't made itself very clear in regards to being a positive thing.

So overall human wellness is attached to having the most positive physical results from actions? If it did then that action is ethical, if it didn't then it's unethical? If so, wouldn't the only way for ethics to change is by what considered 'overall human wellness' to change? 

If someone blew himself up, only killing himself, how is that not positive in general for overall human wellness? 


 

My opinions is right has the possibility of being wrong, and your opinion is wrong has the possibility of being right.


Posted By:
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Posted about 4 years ago

I agree, I don't expect anyone to believe because of this.


You'd be surprised how often it comes up in support of theism, like here: 


Don't you believe that there is no God, even thought you can't prove that a god doesn't exist,

 




Maybe I should have wrote valid reasons then. This is why I mentioned the fact that you don't know what are the arguments of God existence from an Islamic perspective.


I'd love to know what valid reasons you have. Please share.


If so, wouldn't the only way for ethics to change is by what considered 'overall human wellness' to change?


If you subscribe to the same idea I do, yes. 


If someone blew himself up, only killing himself, how is that not positive in general for overall human wellness?


The implication was suicide bombing and killing other people. Suicide to begin with is not good for overall human wellness, because of the negative factors that would contribute to someone deciding to kill themselves. It's not dealing with the root of the problem.

“Mutual caring relationships require kindness and patience, tolerance, optimism, joy in the other's achievements, confidence in oneself, and the ability to give without undue thought of gain.”


Posted By:
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Posted about 4 years ago
wow.... flame war dudes, chill it.


Posted By:
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Posted about 4 years ago


"-Zachary-" wrote:





I agree, I don't expect anyone to believe because of this.


You'd be surprised how often it comes up in support of theism, like here: 




Don't you believe that there is no God, even thought you can't prove that a god doesn't exist,



 

When I wrote that, I was trying to make you think about atheism being a dogma since it involves believing in the non-existence of God with out evidence to support the claim, I never said you should believe in a certain religion because you can't prove the non-existence of God. 




"-Zachary-" wrote:





I'd love to know what valid reasons you have. Please share.

Okay. One of the arguments is, that a first uncaused cause must have always existed for the universe to exist. The universe began to exist (big bang) it must'v been caused.
Two premises :
1. Whatever begin to exist has a cause. 
2.God never began to exist, therefor God wasn't caused. 
Before you bring up 'quantum fluctuations', to my knowledge the explanation some physicists have for energetic particles that seem to appear from nothing, that they actually comes from nothing, and that there is another explanation to this that is based on determinism and that this phenomena isn't independent of causality. In short unless it's an established fact rather than a physicist/s view it doesn't defeat the above argument. 

unless you believe that, no, the universe didn't begin to exist and was always there? 



 


"-Zachary-" wrote:





If you subscribe to the same idea I do, yes. 

I don't. I must admit, I'm confused here. How would what is considered 'overall human wellness' change? Shouldn't 'overall human wellness'' play the 'constant' role, since you would change your ethics to reach an objective aim? If you don't think it's 'objective', overall human wellness, I mean, then why would you have it as a moral basis? 



 

My opinions is right has the possibility of being wrong, and your opinion is wrong has the possibility of being right.


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Posted about 4 years ago
Chill out guys. Look at the notifications, it's in the bottom now. O.O


Posted By:
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Posted about 4 years ago
This problem happens a lot Ika. If you wanna fix it, just click edit on your post, and then post it again without making any changes. Weird stuff.


When I wrote that, I was trying to make you think about atheism being a dogma since it involves believing in the non-existence of God with out evidence to support the claim, I never said you should believe in a certain religion because you can't prove the non-existence of God. 


Except, for the trillionth time, the atheist's position is that of a lack of belief in a deity, and it's the job of the theists to prove a God / the God's existence. It's not dogma to believe there isn't an invisible pink unicorn just because you can't prove that it doesn't exist (Which is impossible, as I've gone over so many times). Not believing something (or believing something) isn't necessarily dogma, anyway. It's when it's taught as incontrovertibly true does it become dogma. 


Okay. One of the arguments is, that a first uncaused cause must have always existed for the universe to exist. The universe began to exist (big bang) it must'v been caused.


Like you said at the end there, if you're going to make the exception for God having always existed and not needing a creator, then you might as well make the same leap and say the Universe has always existed and not needed a creator. If I ask the question of "Who created God", more likely than not the reply will be "He was always there." There's no reason why this wouldn't be able to apply to the Universe as well, since it's a baseless claim, and I don't think virtual particles/Casimir effect/quantum fluctuations really play a role in this. 


I don't. I must admit, I'm confused here. How would what is considered 'overall human wellness' change? Shouldn't 'overall human wellness'' play the 'constant' role, since you would change your ethics to reach an objective aim? If you don't think it's 'objective', overall human wellness, I mean, then why would you have it as a moral basis? 

 



Yeah, it's just worded a little strangely. The overall human wellness is objective, but it's this quote that we need to pay attention to, in particular the word 'considered'


If so, wouldn't the only way for ethics to change is by what considered 'overall human wellness' to change?


Ethics change because people have new ideas of what is good or bad about achieving overall human wellness. The wellness itself does not change, but the system of ethics that lead us to that wellness does, based upon the perception of what is good. 

“Mutual caring relationships require kindness and patience, tolerance, optimism, joy in the other's achievements, confidence in oneself, and the ability to give without undue thought of gain.”


Posted By:
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Posted about 4 years ago

"-Zachary-" wrote:

This problem happens a lot Ika. If you wanna fix it, just click edit on your post, and then post it again without making any changes. Weird stuff.

I did that, though the notifications still appear at the bottom of the page.

"-Zachary-" wrote:


Like you said at the end there, if you're going to make the exception for God having always existed and not needing a creator,

I already established that since God never began to exist he wasn't caused, I didn't randomly make the exception. 

"-Zachary-" wrote:



 then you might as well make the same leap and say the Universe has always existed and not needed a creator

So you believe the universe was always there. Eternal? Isn't the big bang the start of physical time and space, energy and matter? 

"-Zachary-" wrote:

 and I don't think virtual particles/Casimir effect/quantum fluctuations really play a role in this.

I mentioned in case you mentioned it trying to prove that the first premises I previously wrote was wrong.

"-Zachary-" wrote:


Yeah, it's just worded a little strangely. The overall human wellness is objective, but it's this quote that we need to pay attention to, in particular the word 'considered'




If so, wouldn't the only way for ethics to change is by what considered 'overall human wellness' to change?
 


Ethics change because people have new ideas of what is good or bad about achieving overall human wellness. The wellness itself does not change, but the system of ethics that lead us to that wellness does, based upon the perception of what is good. 


Aha, now your - I don't know what to call this exactly- ethics achieving theory is understandable to me. 'Based upon the perception of what is good' the perception of you and everyone else who submit to this idea/s? Nothing different than what is normally called 'subjective morals' then.

My opinions is right has the possibility of being wrong, and your opinion is wrong has the possibility of being right.


Posted By:
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Posted about 4 years ago
Quotes are broken, lololol


I already established that since God never began to exist he wasn't caused, I didn't randomly make the exception.

Except if you're going to make that baseless exception for God, you should also be okay with making that baseless exception for the Universe having always existed, and when you're at that point, there's no reason to believe one over the other.



So you believe the universe was always there. Eternal? Isn't the big bang the start of physical time and space, energy and matter?

No, I believe the Universe is 13.7 billion years old and was created by means that we have not yet discovered, and the Big Bang is an accurate depiction of what followed immediately after the creation of the universe. 

The Big Bang wasn't the start, it describes what happened to the Universe an extremely short time after it was created. No one knows for sure how it was created at this point. 


Aha, now your - I don't know what to call this exactly- ethics achieving theory is understandable to me. 'Based upon the perception of what is good' the perception of you and everyone else who submit to this idea/s? Nothing different than what is normally called 'subjective morals' then.

My wording is really really poor, but I'll give it a shot.

I'd say that overall human wellness is a conglomeration of the various factors that lead to happiness.

I'd also say that morals are what we use to describe and understand what is "good" and "bad". In this case, good morals would be morals that contribute to human wellness. Compassion, charity, being kind, etc. being examples of that. Bad morals would be morals that inhibit or remove human wellness (happiness), such as the oppression of blacks, torture, stealing, etc. 

Now, people's beliefs in things, which are subjective, include morals. Some think it's alright to torture, steal, etc., others don't. The subjective morals affect the objective happiness though. So while people are free to believe that torture is an okay thing to do, it still contributes negatively to maximizing the objective part, being wellness.

There are morals that are objectively good, because they contribute positively to the overall human wellness of civilization, and there are morals that are objectively bad because they contribute negatively to it. So, while which morals you adopt is subjective, some morals are objectively better or worse due to their affect on human wellness. 

I hope that makes some sense. 


“Mutual caring relationships require kindness and patience, tolerance, optimism, joy in the other's achievements, confidence in oneself, and the ability to give without undue thought of gain.”


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Posted about 4 years ago

"-Zachary-" wrote:

Oh yeah, I've totally forgotten to address the OP.


There is no evidence and proof of any religion.


There. As if I hadn't made it clear enough as it is Tongue Out 

I wanted to create a discussion, to be honest. Not to find an answer to my question Big Grin

It seems I am being successful, and I'm really enjoying the read at the moment.

“Personal experience makes a believer out of anyone; that explains the hordes of evolution deniers.”


Posted By:
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Posted about 4 years ago

"operation" wrote:


 




"-Zachary-" wrote:


Oh yeah, I've totally forgotten to address the OP.



There is no evidence and proof of any religion.



There. As if I hadn't made it clear enough as it is Tongue Out 

 

I wanted to create a discussion, to be honest. Not to find an answer to my question Big Grin

It seems I am being successful, and I'm really enjoying the read at the moment.



haha, no doubt. Too bad we've killed the formatting somehow 

“Mutual caring relationships require kindness and patience, tolerance, optimism, joy in the other's achievements, confidence in oneself, and the ability to give without undue thought of gain.”


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