Alexithymia ...said : That argument doesn't work for many reasons. First off, we have to question how free we really are. Yes, we are able to make our own decisions, but two things that are out of our control, nature and nurture, have already impacted how we will choose. How our brain is made up, which side of it is dominant, impacts our choices. Even our political leanings have a lot to do with chemicals in our brains. If you have more of a chemical called dopamine in your brain and are naturally social, then there is a high chance of you being a liberal. Also, by the age of 22 most people have most of their ideas set and won't change them much. Now, for the origin of the universe, it really bothers me when philosophy thinks it can prove the existence of things. There is no logical reason to think that we must have been created by an intelligent creator that wanted us to have free will. To think that, you're refusing to search for the actual source of creation. We aren't sure of the creation of the universe, but why couldn't the universe have been created by chance and natural laws? That would have no influence on our free will. Of course chance can happen without a will; that's where the natural laws step in. What are you talking about when you say Materialistic Laws? That isn't a law of the universe. Naturally most humans have the desire for things, but it isn't a law and it can be overcome. Free will doesn't have to do with the creation of the universe. It has to do with life; we know how it came into existence and that is through chance and nature. "Free will" has to do with our consciousness, which came about through mutations. "Free will" isn't as free as you think Post was saved and is waiting for moderator approval ................... i can't reply because this keeps on showing up . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since you are asking us to question how free we really are..then let me ask you foremost ,Do you think you are you free or not ?. what I understand from you is that you believe we are free to make our own decisions,and on that both you and I agree. But you mentioned that nature impacts on how we choose, and you gave an example to that witch is ''Dopamine'' , and what you're saying is that it impact our choices. But the fact is that ''In certain areas of the brain when dopamine is released it gives one the feeling of pleasure or satisfaction'' . that means that the dopamine is released when you do a particular behavior and because it gives one a since of pleasure ,he seeks to repeat the behavior that gave him pleasure. So my point is that the release of dopamine only happen due to someone action (someone choice of will) , therefor dopamine didn't control his choice, but he chose to control the level of dopamine by a choice he made.Also when you said that most people set their choices by the age of 22 and wouldn't change them much. Here I have to ask you another question, Do you really think all our choices will be done by the age of 22?!!! but that's ridiculous because we make choices all the time! i chose to write a topic entitled Are You Free ? , you chose to reply to it. anything you do happens because of your free will -because you chose to do it- and i think that by the time we're 22- if we make it until then-there still gonna be a lot of choices to do .

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Your response is filled with strawmen, arguments that never address what I actually said. Psychologists, scientists, and I all disagree with your idea of free will. Like I said before, how we will choose is completely decided by nature and nurture. We're the products of these two. I gave more than one example. You played down the effects of dopamine extremely. In fact, omitting as much information as you did could be considered lying. Dopamine affects numerous parts of the brain: sleep, movement, moods, pleasure how we learn etc. You ignored all of this and didn't address what I told you; naturally social people with more dopamine have a huge chance of being liberal. Dopamine clearly doesn't just affect us after we make decisions. As for people having most of their ideas set by their 20's, again you don't address what I actually said. I never said their choices are set, but for most people their religion, political party, opinions, etc. are set. Those things affect their choices. By the way, you didn't attempt to address the other things I said.

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Firstly, sorry i repeated my reply many times but it didn't show up earlier . no I don't agree , their are many theories of one's free will and they don't all disagree with my idea of free will . You claim that we came from the product of nature not me and this is the point i want it to make next that's why I waited for you to address my first reply .and I also a question witch you haven't answered yet : Are You free or not? I didn't lie to you , dopamine like I said when released - through an action- produce a since of pleasure or satisfaction with that ,dopamine do effect us after we make decisions. And if you have examples that insist on the fact that dopamine effect you without being released through certain actions, then please present it . you also talked about setting important opinions in your 20's like religion or political parties,and those things effect their choices . well I agree those decisions do effect their life but only because they CHOSE it to effect their life. no to the other things i want it to get you . you said chance can happen without a previous will through natural laws .. explain ? and when I said Materialistic laws it's the same as saying natural laws , it's laws that matter submit to .and finally how is it that are free will comes from mutation ?!

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You don't need to apologize for that. What are these "theories?" You're definitely not talking about scientific theories. Nearly all psychologists and scientists disagree with your idea of free will! I already answered your question; it depends on your definition of freedom. Must we be held responsible for our decisions? Yes, definitely, but does nature and nurture have nothing to do with our conscious decisions, no! It's completely irrational to think that nature has no influence on our behavior. You lied to me by omission. You withheld information about the other things dopamine is behind. I already gave you examples; dopamine is behind a variety of things and isn't just released after something pleasant. Only if you let it affect your life? Of course it is going to affect your life! These ideas are how they think; their way of thinking is set for most people and unless you make decisions by flipping a coin, your way of thinking will affect your choices. An example? Sure, a bird can get struck by lightening. Did someone will the lightening to strike the bird? No, that was chance. I have never heard someone say "materialistic laws" and when I looked it up, I didn't find anything on it. Our conscious came through mutations, an example is how our brains are allowed to expand into adulthood because of a mutation that changed the connection between our skull and jaw. We are able to make choices because of our consciousness. If you're under the impression that I think we can't make choices, that's not true. I just logically recognize that how we make decisions is impacted by many factors that are out of our control.

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I have a feeling that you misunderstood my definition of free will , witch is like I mentioned before : our ability to make choices without being ''forced to''. I quote from you : (It's completely irrational to think that nature has no influence on our behavior.) I assume you think that because of the example of the dopamine - correct me if I'm wrong - Okay I already explained how pleasure can be produce when dopamine is released through a certain action,and I honestly thought it would be enough to elaborate. But anyway I'll get to the other things too. you said that having more dopamine and being naturally social gives a higher chance of being a liberal. but the thing is, how can someone gust naturally have more dopamine without taking drugs or doing certain things ??! unless you mean that social people do some actions witch release dopamine ,in that case it make since and you proved my point. the way people think ,because of their religion or political choices is the way the choose to think ,so if this way of thinking effects their latter choices it will be because they wanted it to do so . it was their own choice in the beginning when they chose to believe in a religion or a political idea and submitted to it as a way of thinking. exactly what I was trying to say ,a bird getting stroke (chance) by lightning (natural phenomenon) .the chance is a result of natural law and natural law is an automatic mechanism previously designed.so my point is the following : if the universe came about from chance produced by natural laws ( automatic mechanism) and we were a product of that , How is it that we have free will when we are a product of something that doesn't have free will ?? mutations can rarely be good or beneficial mostly they causes defects in the organism and since that mutations happen within 2 levels : on the level of chromosomes and on the level of genes..so this mutation you are referring to is it a Chromosomal mutation or a genetic mutation? i know now that you agree that people are accountable for their decisions.

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Locked: Duplicate Topic

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No problem with that.

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"Zonkers!" wrote:

Locked: Duplicate Topic

Wouldn't it be more considerate to lock the other topic then? We're debating on this one.

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I didn't misunderstand your definition; you appear to be under the impression that nature has no effect on how we make decisions. That isn't true. No, it's irrational to think nature has no effect on our decisions for many reasons. The dopamine was just the latest thing I heard on the news about genetics affecting our politics. I apologize for my mistake; it's not that having more dopamine causes people to be liberal; it's a specific gene called DRD4. It's the code for a dopamine receptor. Another example is how our brains can make decisions for us before we are conscious of them. Brain scans can pick up on which out of two buttons a person will push about 10 seconds before the person consciously makes the decision. No, it's not the way they choose to think. It's the way they do think and unless they are convinced otherwise, that doesn't change. Can you just choose to agree with everything I believe in and actually believe it for yourself? You can pretend you do, but wouldn't you just be lying to yourself? You're understanding of Natural Laws doesn't appear to be correct. What Law would prevent us from having free will? I looked at the list of known Natural Laws and can't find one. There is room within Natural Laws for us to think and make decisions. "Mutations can rarely be good or beneficial." Yes, rarely. Have you considered how many mutations there are? Eventually a good one comes along. It was a gene mutation.

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I have looked up the study about DRD4, let’s clear a few things: 1.We all have the DRD4 gene, but not everyone have a specific variant of the gene which is the 7R allele of this gene. 2.I quote from the study itself : ‘’ We show that among those who carry the 7R allele of the DRD4 gene, the number of friends a person has in adolescence is positively associated with liberal self-identification in early adulthood.’’ 3.‘’ Moreover, we show that the 7R allele is not directly associated with the reported number of friends, nor is it directly associated with ideology.’’ 4.‘’ Instead, it is the combination of this specific gene variant with a specific social environment that may contribute to the development of a liberal political ideology.’’ 5.People who don’t have the 7R variant of DRD4 gene can have a liberal political ideology as choice. You said it yourself brain scans show what decision we will make before making it because we can have thoughts about something before deciding to make an action and the brain scan can see that so that’s the method they use to know what we will decide because most of the time we think about it .but scientists doesn’t always have the right answer because it’s not 100 percent accurate all the time. What do you mean it’s not the way they choose to think? For example If someone believe in a certain religion ,the way he think can be impacted by the religion he believes in, but he chose for it to impact on his way of thinking by choosing to believe in it. Natural laws are an automatic mechanism .if the universe happened by chance that occurred because of natural laws which is an ‘’ automatic mechanism’’ meaning that it has no free will how is it that we humans who have free will are a product of something that doesn’t have a free will ? What’s the chance for’’ un- condemned’’ beneficial gene mutation to happen? I say un –condemned because I mean that wasn’t made in laboratories by scientists but rather by chance and ‘’natural selection’’.

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