they claimed to have seen spirits but people other than them don't see it. Right, but they don't try to convince other people to believe in their spirits. They expect people to see things before they believe them.  Yes, but the truth about a religious message doesn't get negated because it haven't spread from multiple points.''picky about it''! no, God does care about the message reaching the world not only a small part of the world, because the message spread anyway. and the people it didn't reach will be judged fairly. I'm not saying that a single starting point is enough to label everything in a religion false, but rather that having many starting points would be remarkable. Yes, the message spread, but again, it took hundreds of years for it to reach some people. Didn't God want a relationship with those people? Apparently not enough to send a prophet to them.  I meant maybe you're not familiar with all the evidence for Islam. There isn't enough evidence for me to believe in a god, any god, but I'd love to hear about the evidence for your religion.   I understand most of the things here. I think your question is, why then don't God just give us /or not give us, what we asked for- since he already knows what we're asking for and decided whether or not he will give it to us- before we ask for it? if that's your question. If God just gave us without asking we wouldn't even feel grateful, it would be pointless because we wouldn't feel anything. That's not really my question. My question is why do Muslims ask for things at all? If they know that God has a plan, why don't they just wait to see if what they want will be given to them? 

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"Alexithymia" wrote:

Right, but they don't try to convince other people to believe in their spirits. They expect people to see things before they believe them.  They expect people to see what they see in order for them to believe it, but expecting them to see doesn't make them see it, anyway I think they hold those beings as a deity because their not even spirits to them, those beings have different names, but doesn't exactly mean ''spirits'' in English.  I'm not saying that a single starting point is enough to label everything in a religion false, but rather that having many starting points would be remarkable. Yes, the message spread, but again, it took hundreds of years for it to reach some people. Didn't God want a relationship with those people? Apparently not enough to send a prophet to them.  It didn't take that much time, I mean from one man-the prophet peace and blessings be upon him_ to more than 1400 million Muslims today. you see that God doesn't care about people because not every nation and tribe had a different prophet? and if this happened it means that God cared ? if it didn't it means God doesn't care?. I disagree, I say If God didn't care he wouldn't send a message at all or he would've condemned the message to be only embraced by one nation and tribe, but that's not the case since the message spread quite fast and it was for all of humanity.  There isn't enough evidence for me to believe in a god, any god, but I'd love to hear about the evidence for your religion.   Okay, I'll give you the miraculous nature of the Qur'an argument: the nature of the Qur'an is the Arabic language and as a Muslim I claim the Qur'an is divine, that it came from Allah, why do we claim that?. because the Qur'an have it's own unique literary form, it's neither poetry nor prose, it's inimitable. It challenged Arab at that time-and they were the best to express themselves with the Arabic language- to produce one chapter like it, but they couldn't. even though the Arabic language has finite letters, and grammatical rules, no one can produce something like the Qur'an. this shows that it's miraculous, an act of impossibility to come from people.     That's not really my question. My question is why do Muslims ask for things at all? If they know that God has a plan, why don't they just wait to see if what they want will be given to them? 

without asking? because commanded people to pray.and praying builds a deep connection between one and his creator.

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They expect people to see what they see in order for them to believe it, but expecting them to see doesn't make them see it, anyway I think they hold those beings as a deity because their not even spirits to them, those beings have different names, but doesn't exactly mean ''spirits'' in English.  Of course it doesn't, but they're fine with other people who haven't seen the spirits not believing in them. I guess we've got different definitions of what qualifies as a deity. The linguist/missionary that spent years with the tribe spent a lot of time discussing spirits. If he says that the tribe means spirits, I'm taking his word for it.  It didn't take that much time, I mean from one man-the prophet peace and blessings be upon him_ to more than 1400 million Muslims today. you see that God doesn't care about people because not every nation and tribe had a different prophet? and if this happened it means that God cared ? if it didn't it means God doesn't care?. I disagree, I say If God didn't care he wouldn't send a message at all or he would've condemned the message to be only embraced by one nation and tribe, but that's not the case since the message spread quite fast and it was for all of humanity.  Yes, today, over a thousand and a half years later, yet people like the Piraha tribe either didn't hear about Islam until very recently or have yet to hear about it. If every nation and tribe had a prophet, it would prove that God cared deeply about reaching everyone, on every continent, like North and South America, which didn't get to hear about the religion until after the Europeans arrived.  Okay, I'll give you the miraculous nature of the Qur'an argument: the nature of the Qur'an is the Arabic language and as a Muslim I claim the Qur'an is divine, that it came from Allah, why do we claim that?. because the Qur'an have it's own unique literary form, it's neither poetry nor prose, it's inimitable. It challenged Arab at that time-and they were the best to express themselves with the Arabic language- to produce one chapter like it, but they couldn't. even though the Arabic language has finite letters, and grammatical rules, no one can produce something like the Qur'an. this shows that it's miraculous, an act of impossibility to come from people.     I can't read Arabic, so I can't see that for myself. Regardless, that argument is not going to convince me. Humans have done remarkable things throughout history, some of which we're only coming to understand recently. It seems much more likely that the Quran was just written by an ingenious writer. without asking? because commanded people to pray.and praying builds a deep connection between one and his creator. Yeah, but why don't you pray to talk to God instead of asking for things that have already been decided?

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"Honour" wrote:

Cleaned up thread

Thank you, most of the time I report spam & stuff it does not get removed. It's annoying to people posting on the topic & Jr Mods using their time to try & help.

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Of course it doesn't, but they're fine with other people who haven't seen the spirits not believing in them. I guess we've got different definitions of what qualifies as a deity. The linguist/missionary that spent years with the tribe spent a lot of time discussing spirits. If he says that the tribe means spirits, I'm taking his word for it.  I think since they are the only one that can see it, and they fear them and obey them, in another word submit to these beings, then I think they hold them as deity. Yes, today, over a thousand and a half years later, yet people like the Piraha tribe either didn't hear about Islam until very recently or have yet to hear about it. If every nation and tribe had a prophet, it would prove that God cared deeply about reaching everyone, on every continent, like North and South America, which didn't get to hear about the religion until after the Europeans arrived.  like I said before, I believe there were many prophets before and their is no way to know for sure that every prophet came from the middle east. I can't read Arabic, so I can't see that for myself. Regardless, that argument is not going to convince me.  ! ...! ....! I'm shocked. you think that because you can't speak the Arabic language, you can't appreciate or believe that the Qur'an is inimitable? but linguistics such as the Literary scholar Arthur J. Arberry, wittiness this : ''For the Koran is neither prose nor poetry, but a unique fusion of both'', this concerning the Qur'an unique style.Also the Professor and Arabist Hamilton Gibb states :“.…the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Muhammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evidential miracle” and this is concerning the fact the no one can produce something like the Qur'an. Humans have done remarkable things throughout history, some of which we're only coming to understand recently. It seems much more likely that the Quran was just written by an ingenious writer. remarkable isn't inimitable. If it was written than Arab at that time -some who hated Islam, and wanted it to end- would've taken the chance to bring something like it.  Yeah, but why don't you pray to talk to God instead of asking for things that have already been decided? talk to God? I'm not sure I understand you.

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I'm a little late to the game, but here's a question I've always had: If Jesus' death was both necessary and predetermined, why was Judas punished for it?

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"CitrusPleasure" wrote:

I'm a little late to the game, but here's a question I've always had: If Jesus' death was both necessary and predetermined, why was Judas punished for it?

He's not dead. God took him to heaven and the Jews killed an imposter

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"TheHelloPortal" wrote:

"CitrusPleasure" wrote:

I'm a little late to the game, but here's a question I've always had: If Jesus' death was both necessary and predetermined, why was Judas punished for it?

He's not dead. God took him to heaven and the Jews killed an imposter

Then the entire message of "He died for our sins" kind of loses all meaning, doesn't it?

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@Ika I had to switch to bold because my computer isn't letting me change the color. I think since they are the only one that can see it, and they fear them and obey them, in another word submit to these beings, then I think they hold them as deity. The defintion of a deity is to a certain degree subjective. The spirits can fit into your defintion, but the Piraha disagree with the idea that they are believing in gods. Regardless, I still see no reason to think that humans are born with knowledge of god's existence, instead of just making gods/supernatural beings up to answer their questions. like I said before, I believe there were many prophets before and their is no way to know for sure that every prophet came from the middle east. Considering that the Islam's starting point was in the Middle East and that there is no evidence that there were believers in other parts of the world at that time, I think it's safe to say that your god didn't do what I'm suggesting. If he did to the extent that I'm imagining, we'd know about. ! ...! ....! I'm shocked. you think that because you can't speak the Arabic language, you can't appreciate or believe that the Qur'an is inimitable? but linguistics such as the Literary scholar Arthur J. Arberry, wittiness this : ''For the Koran is neither prose nor poetry, but a unique fusion of both'', this concerning the Qur'an unique style.Also the Professor and Arabist Hamilton Gibb states :“.…the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Muhammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evidential miracle” and this is concerning the fact the no one can produce something like the Qur'an. The language barrier alone is not the reason why I think it's not divine, but I feel it is imporant to mention that I can't read your holy book in its language and that the beauty would definitely be lost to me in a translation. Still, if God wanted to perform a miracle that would convince me and other atheists, it would have to be better than a pretty book. So what if it's not prose/poetry? Writers come up with new things every now and then. You keep saying that it can't be imitated, but I have yet to see any proof of that. I've tried looking it up, but all I find are Muslims making the same claims you're making. How is it obvious that people can't produce verses like it? I haven't read anyone's attempt to! How would you even judge an attempt? Can you clearly define the challenge?  I find it a little ridiculous that you expect me to take everything you say seriously about a book that I can't read when all the "evidence" I have are the claims that you make. I'm going to need more than that and the word of two linguists. remarkable isn't inimitable. If it was written than Arab at that time -some who hated Islam, and wanted it to end- would've taken the chance to bring something like it. Some of them are "inimitable." For example, you couldn't imitate the Voynich manuscript because the language hasn't been deciphered. Again, what exactly is the challenge? What standards would the imitation have to meet? talk to God? I'm not sure I understand you. Why not just pray in order to worship God, instead of to ask things?

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The defintion of a deity is to a certain degree subjective. The spirits can fit into your defintion, but the Piraha disagree with the idea that they are believing in gods. Regardless, I still see no reason to think that humans are born with knowledge of god's existence, instead of just making gods/supernatural beings up to answer their questions. I don't share your view on this, but let's move on. Considering that the Islam's starting point was in the Middle East and that there is no evidence that there were believers in other parts of the world at that time, I think it's safe to say that your god didn't do what I'm suggesting. If he did to the extent that I'm imagining, we'd know about. Islam isn't a new religion, it's the complement of the previous divine messages. this is why I say that God message was carried by other prophets before some we know of and some we don't, how can you be certain that all of them came from the middle east, and another thing, how do you know that every nation and tribe had someone worthy to be a prophet?    The language barrier alone is not the reason why I think it's not divine, but I feel it is important to mention that I can't read your holy book in its language and that the beauty would definitely be lost to me in a translation. Still, if God wanted to perform a miracle that would convince me and other atheists, it would have to be better than a pretty book. I said it was inimitable not just what you say: a pretty book.   So what if it's not prose/poetry? Writers come up with new things every now and then. You keep saying that it can't be imitated, but I have yet to see any proof of that. I've tried looking it up, but all I find are Muslims making the same claims you're making. How is it obvious that people can't produce verses like it? I haven't read anyone's attempt to! How would you even judge an attempt? Can you clearly define the challenge?  so what if it's not poetry or prose? when you write with classical Arabic it's either one of those two, the Qur'an is different because it has it's own literary style. writers come up with new things but it can be replicated and imitated, it wouldn't be inimitable. the challenge is clear, if it's not inimitable someone would've been able to produce something like the literary style of the Qur'an. and I'm surprised that you didn't see anything about it, I can reference you to some major books written about it if you like.  I find it a little ridiculous that you expect me to take everything you say seriously about a book that I can't read when all the "evidence" I have are the claims that you make. I'm going to need more than that and the word of two linguists. no, this is not my words alone about it. many other linguists wittiness this miraculous nature of the Qur'an, like Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot British Orientalist and translator states:“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.” so yes their have been attempts but they all failed. Some of them are "inimitable." For example, you couldn't imitate the Voynich manuscript because the language hasn't been deciphered. Again, what exactly is the challenge? What standards would the imitation have to meet? you said it, it hasn't been deciphered. the Qur'an is quite clear in it's challenge. We have the Arabic language witch has finite litters and grammatical rules but no one can produce something like it, this shows that it's truly divine.  . Why not just pray in order to worship God, instead of to ask things? I do both.

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